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	<title>Comments on: Why I think test driven development suck</title>
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		<title>By: Terra</title>
		<link>http://www.underdevelopment.eu/2009/08/29/why-i-think-test-driven-development-suck/comment-page-1/#comment-51819</link>
		<dc:creator>Terra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:33:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.underdevelopment.eu/?p=150#comment-51819</guid>
		<description>@Gary S : You are spot on, it is good to see not all developers are becoming brain washed morons.  To Borio and 3P etc, everything you say is completely unsupported hearsay and you have made no attempt to provide counter arguments to Gary&#039;s or the OP&#039;s logical and well reasoned points.  You are basically sheep following the crowd. Oh and btw 99% of my code works first time, it&#039;s called being a professional software developer; it&#039;s dismally sad that you seem to feel this is unobtainable, only a few years a go this was the norm.  TDD isn&#039;t going to make up for you being a poor programmer. I raise back the point if you so clearly expect such resounding defects in your code what makes you think your tests will be any better? Think about it, try for a second to look beyond the propaganda which seems to be primarily coming from the academic and research community.  The real world is a very different place than academia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Gary S : You are spot on, it is good to see not all developers are becoming brain washed morons.  To Borio and 3P etc, everything you say is completely unsupported hearsay and you have made no attempt to provide counter arguments to Gary&#8217;s or the OP&#8217;s logical and well reasoned points.  You are basically sheep following the crowd. Oh and btw 99% of my code works first time, it&#8217;s called being a professional software developer; it&#8217;s dismally sad that you seem to feel this is unobtainable, only a few years a go this was the norm.  TDD isn&#8217;t going to make up for you being a poor programmer. I raise back the point if you so clearly expect such resounding defects in your code what makes you think your tests will be any better? Think about it, try for a second to look beyond the propaganda which seems to be primarily coming from the academic and research community.  The real world is a very different place than academia.</p>
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		<title>By: TDDSucks</title>
		<link>http://www.underdevelopment.eu/2009/08/29/why-i-think-test-driven-development-suck/comment-page-1/#comment-51242</link>
		<dc:creator>TDDSucks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Sep 2011 01:10:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.underdevelopment.eu/?p=150#comment-51242</guid>
		<description>TDD really sucks. No private methods (because they cant be tested). Mocking Database transactions (what&#039;s the point of writing a test case again?). Especially writing code in your class just so you can run your test case. These are some of the things that bother me.
having test cases help for sure. Not against testing and unit test cases, they are a great way to ensure quality. But writing a test case even before writing a line of code? Nonsense....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TDD really sucks. No private methods (because they cant be tested). Mocking Database transactions (what&#8217;s the point of writing a test case again?). Especially writing code in your class just so you can run your test case. These are some of the things that bother me.<br />
having test cases help for sure. Not against testing and unit test cases, they are a great way to ensure quality. But writing a test case even before writing a line of code? Nonsense&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: The 7 Habits of Highly Ineffective Developers</title>
		<link>http://www.underdevelopment.eu/2009/08/29/why-i-think-test-driven-development-suck/comment-page-1/#comment-50598</link>
		<dc:creator>The 7 Habits of Highly Ineffective Developers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jun 2011 12:27:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.underdevelopment.eu/?p=150#comment-50598</guid>
		<description>[...] let people undermine your Authority with ramblings about Test Driven Nonsense, Automatic Test Bullshit, and Unit Yadda-yadda. After all, you build it. It&#8217;s only logical no [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] let people undermine your Authority with ramblings about Test Driven Nonsense, Automatic Test Bullshit, and Unit Yadda-yadda. After all, you build it. It&#8217;s only logical no [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The 7 Habits of Highly Ineffective Developers &#124; The IT Reporter</title>
		<link>http://www.underdevelopment.eu/2009/08/29/why-i-think-test-driven-development-suck/comment-page-1/#comment-50529</link>
		<dc:creator>The 7 Habits of Highly Ineffective Developers &#124; The IT Reporter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jun 2011 21:24:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.underdevelopment.eu/?p=150#comment-50529</guid>
		<description>[...] let people undermine your Authority with ramblings about Test Driven Nonsense, Automatic Test Bullshit, and Unit Yadda-yadda. After all, you build it. It&#8217;s only logical no [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] let people undermine your Authority with ramblings about Test Driven Nonsense, Automatic Test Bullshit, and Unit Yadda-yadda. After all, you build it. It&#8217;s only logical no [...]</p>
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		<title>By: 3P</title>
		<link>http://www.underdevelopment.eu/2009/08/29/why-i-think-test-driven-development-suck/comment-page-1/#comment-49980</link>
		<dc:creator>3P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Apr 2011 15:26:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.underdevelopment.eu/?p=150#comment-49980</guid>
		<description>People that think TDD is waste of time are really funny. But hey they say the code they produced in last 10 years is not worth testing. I think that tells a lot about them.

I do TDD for about 6-7 years. And it is the best thing I learned in my 10 years or so programming career.

Maybe there are geniuses that make their code work since first run. If not and You spend time debugging THEN you are wasting your time. In the debugger! And how can You be certain that change You committed didn&#039;t break anything? Manual regression testing? Debugging code that You finished weeks ago? Again? Don&#039;t make me laugh people.

Just think for a second. There must be reason why so many people in Ruby community do TDD, why MS created ASP.NET MVC, why there are Unit testing frameworks, mocking frameworks. You think You 2, 3 person know better then thousands? You really must be geniuses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People that think TDD is waste of time are really funny. But hey they say the code they produced in last 10 years is not worth testing. I think that tells a lot about them.</p>
<p>I do TDD for about 6-7 years. And it is the best thing I learned in my 10 years or so programming career.</p>
<p>Maybe there are geniuses that make their code work since first run. If not and You spend time debugging THEN you are wasting your time. In the debugger! And how can You be certain that change You committed didn&#8217;t break anything? Manual regression testing? Debugging code that You finished weeks ago? Again? Don&#8217;t make me laugh people.</p>
<p>Just think for a second. There must be reason why so many people in Ruby community do TDD, why MS created ASP.NET MVC, why there are Unit testing frameworks, mocking frameworks. You think You 2, 3 person know better then thousands? You really must be geniuses.</p>
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		<title>By: Borio</title>
		<link>http://www.underdevelopment.eu/2009/08/29/why-i-think-test-driven-development-suck/comment-page-1/#comment-49054</link>
		<dc:creator>Borio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Nov 2010 00:08:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.underdevelopment.eu/?p=150#comment-49054</guid>
		<description>People should try serious something, before come with a lot of theory about how TDD is bad, is waste of time, etc

First TDD makes the code better, doing so, makes the final product better. It forces to decoupling things, it forces to a better design because you wont be able to test a poor design.

Those arguments about wasting time writting tests sounds terrible to me. Most of the time spended in regular software development is in debugging and bug fix and you complain about some three lines tests instead hour of debugging and bug fix? Maintenance nightmare doesnt start when the product is deployed, it starts in the very early stages of development and the poor design is almost always there when people chose to save time not writtint tests before the code. 

TDD is better, is faster, but is very harder than regular development.

But, of course, as OO knowledge is some of better distributed things among humans, no one need to learn more about, some people will say I tried it and it sux.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People should try serious something, before come with a lot of theory about how TDD is bad, is waste of time, etc</p>
<p>First TDD makes the code better, doing so, makes the final product better. It forces to decoupling things, it forces to a better design because you wont be able to test a poor design.</p>
<p>Those arguments about wasting time writting tests sounds terrible to me. Most of the time spended in regular software development is in debugging and bug fix and you complain about some three lines tests instead hour of debugging and bug fix? Maintenance nightmare doesnt start when the product is deployed, it starts in the very early stages of development and the poor design is almost always there when people chose to save time not writtint tests before the code. </p>
<p>TDD is better, is faster, but is very harder than regular development.</p>
<p>But, of course, as OO knowledge is some of better distributed things among humans, no one need to learn more about, some people will say I tried it and it sux.</p>
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		<title>By: William C</title>
		<link>http://www.underdevelopment.eu/2009/08/29/why-i-think-test-driven-development-suck/comment-page-1/#comment-48944</link>
		<dc:creator>William C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Aug 2010 10:13:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.underdevelopment.eu/?p=150#comment-48944</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-48898&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Gary S&lt;/a&gt; 
It&#039;s good to know there&#039;s at least one sane person on the internet.  I agree that this whole test driven development religion is completely overblown and is a failed attempt to fix the reality that there are people out there that are just bad at programming. 

Instead of actually knowing what you are doing, you write a bunch of tests and then mindlessly assume all your code is correct when your tests pass, not knowing full well that you might&#039;ve coded your tests wrong in the first place. What will you do then? Suggest that tests be written for the tests? 

So instead of wasting time writing tests to claim that I have &quot;80% code coverage&quot;, how about training software engineers to actually think, code, test, and clean up after themselves. Now all we have instead is a bunch of banshees telling me how to do my job and waste my time writing tests so they can layoff the QA department.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-48898" rel="nofollow">@Gary S</a><br />
It&#8217;s good to know there&#8217;s at least one sane person on the internet.  I agree that this whole test driven development religion is completely overblown and is a failed attempt to fix the reality that there are people out there that are just bad at programming. </p>
<p>Instead of actually knowing what you are doing, you write a bunch of tests and then mindlessly assume all your code is correct when your tests pass, not knowing full well that you might&#8217;ve coded your tests wrong in the first place. What will you do then? Suggest that tests be written for the tests? </p>
<p>So instead of wasting time writing tests to claim that I have &#8220;80% code coverage&#8221;, how about training software engineers to actually think, code, test, and clean up after themselves. Now all we have instead is a bunch of banshees telling me how to do my job and waste my time writing tests so they can layoff the QA department.</p>
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		<title>By: Hamish MccReight</title>
		<link>http://www.underdevelopment.eu/2009/08/29/why-i-think-test-driven-development-suck/comment-page-1/#comment-48932</link>
		<dc:creator>Hamish MccReight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:26:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.underdevelopment.eu/?p=150#comment-48932</guid>
		<description>I used to work for DEC in the eighties developing and testing world-wide apps and now develop Web apps with .NET. I develop and test according to basic techniques learned there., namely, I have a spec that has been reviewed and that lists what a component should do or look like. I code it so it satisfies ALL these requirements and then tick them off as I test it. If I don&#039;t get a spec, I write one that lists the requirements up front, make sure my boss reads it and deal with any issues and then code it so that it satisfies all requirements etc.... Test Driven Development ...no thanks. Functional spec driven development plus testing ....yes. Also, of course, having a decent architecture/framwork that allows easy maintenance and extension also helps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I used to work for DEC in the eighties developing and testing world-wide apps and now develop Web apps with .NET. I develop and test according to basic techniques learned there., namely, I have a spec that has been reviewed and that lists what a component should do or look like. I code it so it satisfies ALL these requirements and then tick them off as I test it. If I don&#8217;t get a spec, I write one that lists the requirements up front, make sure my boss reads it and deal with any issues and then code it so that it satisfies all requirements etc&#8230;. Test Driven Development &#8230;no thanks. Functional spec driven development plus testing &#8230;.yes. Also, of course, having a decent architecture/framwork that allows easy maintenance and extension also helps.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary S</title>
		<link>http://www.underdevelopment.eu/2009/08/29/why-i-think-test-driven-development-suck/comment-page-1/#comment-48898</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 07:40:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.underdevelopment.eu/?p=150#comment-48898</guid>
		<description>Your article is bang on the money in terms of client and business value, but off the mark otherwise.

Not only is TDD a waste of the client&#039;s time and money, it is a waste of the developer&#039;s time as well.

The software testing religion is silly. This idea that you should spend countless hours writing tests so you can boldly refactor all your code safe in the knowledge that you will never introduce a single bug due to your awesome tests violates every theory of computer science there is.

For one, refactoring the code often means refactoring the tests due to changes in the API or architecture. Changing the test when you change your code is equivalent to having no test at all. Read that again if you don&#039;t understand.

Secondly, due to the halting problem, it is impossible to write tests that will find every single possible bug. If you think otherwise, then you should submit a scientific paper with your findings because you will receive the Nobel Prize and have the distinction of proving the likes of Turing and Djikstra wrong. More likely, unit tests exist solely to give you a false sense of security about your code.

Thirdly, when the project nears completion and you fix a lot of small bugs, you will often find you spend as much time maintaining the unit tests as you do the code!  You just don&#039;t have time to do that anymore. More likely, the deadline will force you to throw out all the unit tests because they aren&#039;t adding any value and are slowing you down too much. In which case, you&#039;d have been better off not wasting the time writing them in the first place!

And yes, unit tests can have bugs in them. Why do people assume that developers can write test code that is completely 100% bug free whilst assuming that those same develepers are incompetent enough to include the sort of bugs that unit tests will find in the main code?

It just doesn&#039;t make sense.

In very specific circumstances, such as writing complex scientific or mathematical code, tests make sense ONLY for the purposes of regression testing. It is a complete waste of time in every other circumstance.

Good software development is efficient. Clients expect value for money, and if they knew their developers were squandering thousands of hours of their time writing things which add no value whatsoever they would probably sue.

There&#039;s a good reason the market favours developer groups who don&#039;t waste their time writing tests. They do the job more efficiently.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your article is bang on the money in terms of client and business value, but off the mark otherwise.</p>
<p>Not only is TDD a waste of the client&#8217;s time and money, it is a waste of the developer&#8217;s time as well.</p>
<p>The software testing religion is silly. This idea that you should spend countless hours writing tests so you can boldly refactor all your code safe in the knowledge that you will never introduce a single bug due to your awesome tests violates every theory of computer science there is.</p>
<p>For one, refactoring the code often means refactoring the tests due to changes in the API or architecture. Changing the test when you change your code is equivalent to having no test at all. Read that again if you don&#8217;t understand.</p>
<p>Secondly, due to the halting problem, it is impossible to write tests that will find every single possible bug. If you think otherwise, then you should submit a scientific paper with your findings because you will receive the Nobel Prize and have the distinction of proving the likes of Turing and Djikstra wrong. More likely, unit tests exist solely to give you a false sense of security about your code.</p>
<p>Thirdly, when the project nears completion and you fix a lot of small bugs, you will often find you spend as much time maintaining the unit tests as you do the code!  You just don&#8217;t have time to do that anymore. More likely, the deadline will force you to throw out all the unit tests because they aren&#8217;t adding any value and are slowing you down too much. In which case, you&#8217;d have been better off not wasting the time writing them in the first place!</p>
<p>And yes, unit tests can have bugs in them. Why do people assume that developers can write test code that is completely 100% bug free whilst assuming that those same develepers are incompetent enough to include the sort of bugs that unit tests will find in the main code?</p>
<p>It just doesn&#8217;t make sense.</p>
<p>In very specific circumstances, such as writing complex scientific or mathematical code, tests make sense ONLY for the purposes of regression testing. It is a complete waste of time in every other circumstance.</p>
<p>Good software development is efficient. Clients expect value for money, and if they knew their developers were squandering thousands of hours of their time writing things which add no value whatsoever they would probably sue.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a good reason the market favours developer groups who don&#8217;t waste their time writing tests. They do the job more efficiently.</p>
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		<title>By: René</title>
		<link>http://www.underdevelopment.eu/2009/08/29/why-i-think-test-driven-development-suck/comment-page-1/#comment-48896</link>
		<dc:creator>René</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 12:25:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.underdevelopment.eu/?p=150#comment-48896</guid>
		<description>Well, if you want to sell unfinished software then TDD as well as agile development suck because they try to deliver finished software items. If you want to deliver a software full of bugs and your customer is willing to pay extra to fix those bugs (or you like to gamble and hope the customer won&#039;t notice?) then why using things like TDD??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, if you want to sell unfinished software then TDD as well as agile development suck because they try to deliver finished software items. If you want to deliver a software full of bugs and your customer is willing to pay extra to fix those bugs (or you like to gamble and hope the customer won&#8217;t notice?) then why using things like TDD??</p>
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